Julie Gould 00:01
Hello and welcome to Working Scientist, a Nature Careers podcast. I’m Julie Gould. This is the fifth episode of our career planning series. Each episode concludes with a sponsored slot from the International Science Council, with support of the China Association for Science and Technology.
The ISC is exploring how early and mid-career researchers can navigate their careers in a constantly-evolving scientific landscape through conversations with emerging and established scientists.
In this series so far, we’ve explored what career planning theory is, how career guidance practitioners apply the theory to their practice, some tips on how to get your own career planning started, and how others have planned their careers.
But sometimes even the best-laid plans don’t work out, and it can feel like your entire career has come to a halt.
And that’s what we’re going to hear about today, how some scientists have dealt with projects that don’t work out, political changes, financial crises and leadership changes that have all influenced their career paths.
And we’ll also hear from a careers coach on how people can deal with career plans going awry. But don’t forget to stay with us until the end to hear from the International Science Council.
In your early career, one of the main influences (and hopefully supporters that you’ll have) is your PhD supervisor. This person guides and mentors you through your research journey, helping you refine a research topic, develop methodologies and stay on track towards completing your thesis.
They’ll hopefully provide feedback on research progress, writing and presentations, while also supporting your professional development.
Ultimately, they can act as both an advisor and a collaborator to help you grow into an independent researcher.
This means, if you find a good one, you’ll follow them, which is what Katja Loos did during her early career in chemistry.
Katja is now a professor of polymer chemistry at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands.
But she started her chemistry career with a PhD in organic and polymer chemistry with Reimund Stadler at Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz, in Germany, in 1996
Katja Loos 02:00
I started my PhD already in Mainz, and he decided to take a new, very good position at the University of Bayreuth.
So basically, in the beginning of my PhD, he decided to move. And of course, the group needs to move with him.
And then, yeah, we basically just moved.
And, yeah, he had cancer, and really such an aggressive form. I still remember it. It was quite shocking. So in a matter of weeks, from a healthy person, he was dead.
Julie Gould 02:35
So not only was she in a new city and at a new university, but she was also now without a supervisor. This was not what she had planned. Katja and her research peers all had a lot of concerns about their future.
Katja Loos 02:48
The question is, yeah, will the university help you? Will they even continue to pay you?
Because in Germany, we are, like, paid, we don’t have scholarships or something. And, yeah, so there are quite some, this.
I mean, if you’re in the beginning, you basically could go somewhere else and start. But somehow, I decided to stay.
We also got quite some help from people at the university. So the people at the university helped us to keep our, let’s say, positions. And also from professors from inside and outside.
And then, of course, also my next supervisor, Axel Müller, who came, who took the position. So, yeah, it was really great how actually the support system helped us.
Julie Gould 03:41
Yeah, luckily, you had the support from the people around you. Did you have support from your peers too?
Like, did you sort of help each other, not, maybe not with the financial side of, you know, ”We’re still going to get paid.” But, like, from a sort of emotional support system. Did you find that useful?
Katja Loos 03:58
Yes, so, so I think we moved with like, 50 people in total, the group.
And of course, I mean, yeah, when you move, you’re already, like, doing a lot, like even, you know, helping carry furniture and stuff.
And then this happened, so that was quite, yeah. And then, usually in chemistry, the older PhD students, anyway help the younger PhD students. But you’re right. I mean, it gives it more coherence.
Julie Gould 04:29
What advice do you have for people who have to deal with something like this? Where a professor or supervisor is heavily involved in, you know, the direction of your research and potentially big influence on your career passes away? How would you advise people to deal with that?
Katja Loos 04:47
For instance, at our university now in Groningen, it’s mandatory that all PhD students have a second supervisor.
I still think it’s a good thing that, let’s say most universities I think now have this.
But if your university doesn’t have it, maybe you keep an eye open for let’s say that it’s not an official second supervisor, but someone who still could help you if, yeah, hopefully never, but something happens.
Julie Gould 05:19
Katja’s career goal at the time, as was the norm in Germany for those studying chemistry, was to find a position in industry.
But in 2001, after completing her PhD at the University of Bayreuth in Germany, the financial crisis got in her way.
Katja Loos 05:33
I mean, there were no jobs at all. So all the people who wrote applications, they didn’t even get an answer.
And so it was clear that, I mean, if I now write 100 applications, I will not get a job in industry.
So it was clear that I, either, you know, just wait, travel the world, or do nothing. Or maybe do a postdoc. So I decided for the postdoc.
Julie Gould 06:07
Why did you decide that?
Katja Loos 06:10
I didn’t want to sit at home and just travelling the world? It sounds nice, but I also know myself, this is not.
I would probably also get bored, let alone I wouldn’t have the financial needs to travel the world. Or you take a completely different stop. I maybe you could have gone to, I don’t know, finance or anything. But also this, I didn’t want to.
I mean, after all, I mean, you spent 10 years more or less for this study, then you don’t do anything with it. It also sounded strange to me
Julie Gould 06:47
Towards the end of the postdoc, did you think again? Is it time for me to have another look at industry? Or like, how did the sort of, how did your career plan go from there?
Katja Loos 06:58
So I thought still about industry. But because I liked research, I mean, it’s different when you’re a postdoc, you have more free freedom.
And especially because I had my own money, sort of, I could do whatever I want. I mean, you do still what the group sort of does.
But it was really nice, and then I was undecided. Maybe I should go to university or go to industry.
So I actually also applied at industry. But this offer from Groningen came quite fast.
Julie Gould 07:34
So instead of pursuing a career in industry, Katja has now spent her career in academia, following the tenure track system, and ultimately becoming a full professor at Groningen University in 2012.
It’s not what she envisioned when she started out, and she never imagined she’d do this. But she loved chemistry, and still does, and has flourished whilst doing it. Most notably, she was appointed the Knight of the order of the Dutch Lion in 2023 for her work in green alternative chemistry.
For Katya, the major challenges in career path choices might be behind her, but for Mariana Viglino, who studies fossil dolphins and is a researcher at CONICET in Patagonia, Argentina, she’s right in the thick of it.
Her career goal is to build and develop her own research group as a permanent academic somewhere.
Things started well. She did a PhD, a postdoc, and then got a permanent position at CONICET.
During this early stage of her career, Mariana said she didn’t have any time or energy to plan ahead and think about her future career. Her focus was the work right in front of her. Our conversation starts with me asking her what sort of careers advice she might have been given as a young researcher.
Mariana Viglino 08:41
I wouldn’t say advice. I was advised as what was expected if I wanted to have a career as a researcher in CONICET. Sort of like, ”If you want to continue this path, you must do this, this and that.”
Going back to my university, the only, it’s sort of like, we were given the scenario that the only possibility that we have as a job was to be a researcher in CONICET.
So that was like, you’re supposed to have that goal, and that was the only path. I don’t think any other career options were presented to us.
That was like, that was the path that you have to do, otherwise you’re sort of like a frustrated biologist.
But when I was in my PhD, I was told, like ”You’re expected to do this, this and that, and if you want to continue, basically you have to publish articles like crazy.”
That is the sort of insurance that will allow you to continue moving forward.
Julie Gould 09:35
Okay? And how did you feel when you were given that advice?
Mariana Viglino 09:39
I think at that point I did, I didn’t question myself what was the path that I wanted to take. I think I was automatically following what was expected. I didn’t question whether that was what I wanted.
And when I got to this position as a researcher, I think that was a breaking point for me where I said, ”Okay, I got to this.” What felt like an unattainable goal, I did it. I got here. So now what am I going to do?
I sort of like, just follow the steps of a recipe that I was told I was going to give me sort of a successful position.
And when I got to that, I was like, ”Okay, what do I want to do now? What sort of profession I want to do? What sort of research group I want to create from now, now on? What sort of role model I want for my students when I have them?”
When I have them that sort of questions, I don’t think I ever had the mental space for them until I got to that point in my career.
Julie Gould 10:37
So what about now, then?
So now you’re in the permanent research position. And you know, to use your words, you have, you have some more time and space, mental space, to think.
Have you done any career planning since you started this position? And you know, how’s it going?
Mariana Viglino 10:55
My personality is, I’m a bit of a person that needs to have everything organized and plan ahead. I think during my PhD and postdoc, I learned that there is just a bit of things that I can plan ahead.
The rest is just life happening. I cannot control everything.
So at this point, I wanted to, when I got to this position as a researcher, I started questioning myself, what kind of researcher I want to be.
And I said, ”Okay, I want to be a researcher who’s more inclusive with students, who’s more in touch with their mental health and what they would want to do, and sort of show them that there are other options if they want to.”
And I think I started thinking of those things I want. I want to continue doing, networking with colleagues abroad. That’s something that I want to continue doing, which I did before.
Because those are really wonderful experiences, not only going abroad and working with someone, but also the experience of visiting other countries, the way people work elsewhere, and maybe taking ideas from them.
I had all those ideas, and then chaos began in the country. So now all that has to be put on pause, on hold, because everything that I wanted to do is just unattainable for me at the moment, and sort of a surviving mode.
Julie Gould 12:34
The dire situation for scientific research in Argentina is linked to politics, where the government, led by Javier Milei, has made massive cuts to government spending to reduce the deficit and bring down inflation.
And one area that has taken a major hit is scientific research. Milei has vowed to demolish CONICET, the government-funded research institute that Mariana works at.
And according to a news piece from Nature, the main funder for research projects in the country, the National Agency for the Promotion of Research, Technological Development and Innovation, hasn’t put out a call for new projects for almost two years.
This is why Mariana and many other scientists in Argentina are in survival mode. CONICET has only been paying Mariana her basic salary, which means she’s not been able to develop her research or the research group that she was so excited about.
So I asked Mariana how she’s adapted or reassessed her career plan since all this started.
Mariana Viglino 13:24
The sort of survival mode that I’m saying that I’ve been in means just barely getting my required articles published, and that’s it.
So I had to rearrange my priorities in terms of, instead of looking for, for example, for students, and try to build a new research group of my own and collaborate with others, I i need to first, first and foremost, keep myself, or try to give myself, which is actually crazy what I’m saying, try to keep myself publishing, no matter what, doing my best with that.
And then maybe later on I can focus on the other ideas. But for now, that was sort of the rearrangement of priorities that I had to do.
Julie Gould 14:10
Having to press pause on your career development like this because of something that is out of your control isn’t easy to handle. I asked Mariana how she did it.
Mariana Viglino 14:19
Well for me, going back to therapy was really important.
I think whatever tools are good for you, watching your mental health and making sure that you’re okay, I think that’s first and foremost, the most important thing to do, because if you go crazy, there’s, I mean, there’s no job who’s going to take care of that.
You need to take care of yourself, first, see what you need to be okay, and then then comes work and any kind of project that you might have with work and whatever unexpected thing might come your way. But for me, I think that was the most important, and having my family and my friends and my partner with me sort of like a. Supportiveness around that chaos that was also very important.
Julie Gould 15:05
What Mariana was doing can be explained by something called Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, which can explore people’s different motivations for working. It’s a psychological illustration of how you cope with different things in life.
Careers coach and organizational psychology professor Julia Yates from city St George’s University in London, UK, told me.
Julia Yates 15:24
It talks about people’s different motivations and needs in terms of a hierarchy.
Right at the top of the hierarchy is what Maslow calls self actualization. And that’s really, as scientists and academics, that’s really what we think about a lot in terms of jobs.
Self-actualization is is trying to find a job that gives you purpose and allows you to be the best version of yourself that can be, and allows your strengths to meet the kind of needs of the world. And you know, it’s all a sort of beautiful, fulfilling, purpose-filled job.
But that’s right at the top of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, and further down his hierarchy of leads are things like: Have you got enough money to feed yourself? Are you safe? Are you, do you have sort of healthy relationships around you?
And it’s actually impossible, according to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, it’s impossible to be thinking about self actualization when you’re not confident, you’ve got a roof over your head.
So actually, there are sometimes times in our lives when we have to stop thinking about self-actualization and our higher purpose and whether or not we’re being deeply fulfilled by work, and we just need to bring some money in.
And if we can bring the money in, then we’ve got food on the table, our family’s safe. We’ve got somewhere to live.
And once that’s all sorted and safe, then we can go back up to self-actualization at the top and start thinking again about our purpose and whether or not we’re kind of, you know, using our strengths in the world in the way that we want to.
So I think there’s also something, you know, if people are in certain situations, it’s absolutely fine to just think: ”For now. I’m not going to think about whether this is the perfect job. I’m just going to think that this is a job and that is what I need right now.”
Julie Gould 17:08
So Mariana, when I spoke with her earlier this year, was not able to position herself into that top level of Maslow’s hierarchy.
Instead, she had to think about her other needs, job security and basic survival.
Last month, I caught up with Mariana as she was finishing her first week at a three-month work placement in Germany. I wanted to know how her mindset has changed since she arrived in Germany to start her placement.
Mariana Viglino 17:32
Even though I’ve been here only a few days, it has changed dramatically. I think having a different working environment and not having like all the time to think about if I’m going to make it to the end of the month I need to cover my expenses. What are we going to do? My colleagues are getting out of their jobs. We don’t know what to do. The future is completely uncertain.
I think for just for a little while, to be outside of that and just focus on doing science has really brought my creativity, and I think it kind of put me into a lighter mood, into a better mood.
I feel like I put on some, I lost some weight back home for a bit. I do feel guilty about it, though. I don’t like to feel like this, but it really makes a difference when you have a healthier working environment.
But to be completely honest, it has changed me quite a bit. And I think I really miss having a more, yeah, more positive working environment.
Julie Gould 18:35
Amazing. Well, I’m so pleased to hear that you’re, you’re feeling much more positive because it was, you know, it was, it wasn’t a good space that you were in earlier this year. I’m really, really happy.
Okay, is there anything else that you’d like to tell me for this particular podcast? Maybe some advice for anybody who, you know, has these career plans and then, through no fault of their own, plans get put on hold or plans get derailed, like how to handle it, how to manage it.
Mariana Viglino 19:04
I know it sounds cliche, but try to follow your dreams as much as you can, at least if you have the opportunity to do it.
But I would say, basically, yeah, trust your gut.
I mean, if you think academia is the world that you want to be in, I know it’s hard, I’m not going to idolize it, it has its own difficulties. But I would advise if you like it, just go for it and see where that path leads you.
Julie Gould 19:29
Whatever career path Mariana follows her experience so far will stand her in good stead and prepare her well for whatever comes next.
But sometimes the challenges we face aren’t as big as a political shift. Sometimes maybe just a project didn’t work out. This is something that Poland-based Tomasz Glowacki faced.
He’s the chief AI Officer at OmniShelf and chief AI advisor at Seraphim Defence Systems. He started his scientific career in academia, but moved to industry shortly after completing his PhD in computer science in 2013.
Whilst there, he learned how to create career plans under the guidance of a manager who started him off with a very rigid plan. But ultimately that wasn’t helpful for him.
Tomasz Glowacki 20:09
My first plans were very rigid, and this was the project I should complete. This was the exact skills I should learn, and it was really detailed.
And it wasn’t good. It wasn’t good because the environment change dynamically. And there was a situation that part of my plan was participating in the project that never happened. So then you cannot do your plan.
And industry is very dynamic. I used to work for big companies, but as well for startups. And startup environment is very quick. It’s not easy to plan year ahead what you will be doing.
So what changed during my career was that this planning went from the very detailed list of what should you do to the list of different activities.
And you don’t, don’t need to do all of them. So then there is a start, there is destination point, and there is also list of projects, list of certification. There is a list of people to talk. There is a list of books, papers to read. There is a list of skills to acquire.
But this is the journey. So you don’t need to do all of this. This is, this is, I would say this is like a lighthouse. It shows you what direction you go, but you don’t need to do everything, and one after another one, to be successful.
So this how my plan has changed over time. It’s not anymore about doing everything step by step. It’s rather showing the road. But you do not have to accomplish everything.
Julie Gould 22:07
I like this message from Tomasz that ultimately the planning doesn’t have to be (and often it’s important that it isn’t too detailed and specific). There are things within your life, your working career, that you cannot control, like the project Thomasz was working on before it got canceled.
Or the political environment in your country changing like with Mariana, or your supervisor suddenly passing away as Katya experienced. And over time, Tomasz learned…
Tomasz Glowacki 22:30
….planning is more important than plan, so the activity itself, when you discuss about where you are, you are getting the feedback, you are learning about the organization is most important.
But also what is important, you are learning over the way. So the more you learn about during the way, you can change your attitude, you can change your plans. You can say, I have tested and I would like to do something different. And this is important.
I believe that we should not stick to the plan. It’s not about the plan, it’s about the planning. It’s about the learning.
Julie Gould 23:10
Today, careers can be pushed off path for many different reasons, whether they’re political or health-related, and sometimes things will get tough. That’s life.
It’s not always smooth sailing, and we really should never expect it to be either. And these tough times will appear on your CV, whether you had to change jobs suddenly, or you had to take leave to take care of a family or friend, or whether you got sick or just needed the break, whatever the situation.
Julia Yates 23:35
Those are all things you can recover from. Everything that you do, every opportunity that you take, you will learn something from and gain something from even if it’s the most awful experience, you will get through it and you will learn from it. And that will make you sort of clearer about what you want in the future.
So actually, you know, sometimes the advice is not to worry about it too much, just do whatever you have to do, and when you’re ready to rethink about it, have a chat with somebody and try and work out how to get yourself back on track.
But you will be able to. It will work out.
Julie Gould 24:08
It’s often hard to do, though, you know, so it’s easier, easier said than done, to not worry.
Julia Yates 24:14
100%. Exactly right. When you’re in the middle of it, it’s very difficult to see the bigger picture. But sometimes that’s why you need somebody like me or a podcast like this, or going to see a careers advisor to kind of give you that different perspective, and to say, actually it will work out.
This will be a blip in your career, and eventually you’ll find your way again.
Julie Gould 24:38
When it comes to an interview and people are like, ”Hey, you did this thing on your CV. That’s really weird. What was that about?”
How important is it that you come prepared enough to the interview to explain it and explain what you’ve learned and how you’ve done and why this is and can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Julia Yates 24:54
I think that’s such a good point, because employers do look at your CV, or they look at your kind of employer. With the history, and they do notice that you’ve had a few years out, or perhaps you did a slightly unexpected job that doesn’t really fit.
Or perhaps you did a job and were only there for three months. And they wondered to themselves, ”I wonder what happened there.”
And they might well ask, and even if they don’t ask, you might want to think about whether you volunteer the information, because they’re probably questioning it in their mind, even if they don’t feel they can ask explicitly.
And I think, I think, employers are human.
And almost every employer who will be interviewing you will have got something a little bit unexpected in their own employment history.
So it won’t be a great shock to them to hear that, you know, you took a job that didn’t work out.
But I think the key thing is just to talk to them about what you learned from it. Perhaps why you made the mistake, if it was a mistake on your part in the first instance, perhaps you didn’t research it enough, perhaps you weren’t very self-aware. Perhaps you were seduced by the massive paycheck that they were offering to you.
And then talk about, yeah, I think owning it’s really important. So saying, you know, ”I did something wrong, here” is something that employers are quite open to, and I think that tends to go down a little bit better than saying, you know, ”They misled me, or they were wrong, or, you know, something external”.
I think if you can own it yourself, that’s always impressive, and if you can explain what you did wrong and what you’ve learned from it, I think, I think any employer worth their salt would understand that, and it would make some sense to them.
Julie Gould 26:29
In our sixth and final episode of this series on career planning, I’m sharing a conversation I had with Professor Dame Ottoline Leyser.
We spoke in December 2024 when she was still the CEO of UKRI, We talk about her career, her time at UKRI, and her strong beliefs on how academia needs to learn to diversify their career paths.
But before you go, here’s our sponsored slot from the International Science Council on career development for early and mid-career researchers in an ever-evolving scientific landscape.
Thanks for listening. I’m Julie Gould.
Izzie Clarke: 27:18
Hello and welcome to this podcast presented in partnership with the International Science Council, with the support of the China Association for Science and Technology. I’m science journalist Izzie Clarke.
The future of science relies on the well-being of early- to mid-career researchers, that they feel supported in their workplace so that collaboratively their fields can continue to evolve. But with funding and publication demands, to name a few, how is that possible and what else is needed to mentally support researchers?
To help answer these all-important questions, I’m joined by Yensi Flores Bueso, co-chair of the Global Young Academy, and a Marie Curie Career Fellow at the Institute for Protein Design and the Cancer Research centre at University College Cork.
Yensi Flores Bueso: 28:10
Hi, Izzie.
Izzie Clarke: 28:11
And Lori Foster, the President of the International Association of Applied Psychology and Professor of Organizational Psychology at North Carolina State University.
Lori Foster: 28:21
Hi, Izzie. Great to be here.
Izzie Clarke: 28:24
Well, I think today’s conversation is an important one. We’re talking about mental health and well-being. So, let’s start with the question for both of you. Why do we need to rethink resilience in the research ecosystem, especially when it comes to early- and mid-career researchers?
Lori Foster: 28:39
Sure. I think we’re talking about how to prevent things like burnout, how to foster resilience and thriving. And I suppose I have two answers. So, one is it’s simply the humane thing to do. We have to take care of ourselves and we have to take care of each other. And then answer number two, if we need a business case, is it’s the right thing to do from the standpoint of the advancement of our sciences. If we are in an ecosystem and we are burning out some of our resources, then we are not going to be able to sustain growth and productivity in that ecosystem.
Yensi Flores Bueso: 29:13
I agree with Lori. Science would benefit from scientific systems that can help encourage the different abilities and the different characteristics and the strengths that every researcher has. And being burnt out, or this hyper competition, I don’t think that it benefits some of the characteristics of certain researchers because, at the end of the day, science, it’s done by teams. You need this combination of different abilities and strengths to build a strong team in science.
Izzie Clarke: 29:45
Lori, what would you say are some of the pressures that early- and mid-career researchers face?
Lori Foster: 29:52
Yeah, thanks Izzie. And I’m going to be really interested in Yensi’s perspective on this, as well, given that she is at an earlier career stage than I am. But it can be workload, particularly in the context of the other life pressures that may be going on. That could be anything from paying off student loans to raising a family, to building your social network with your friend groups and all of those things… maintaining your physical activity and exercise, getting enough sleep. So, all of those things can be factors, in addition to the climate or the culture of the work environment, right? And we’re going to see some variability there. But for many, early- and mid-career researchers, that’s a real factor that can be a barrier.
Izzie Clarke: 30:39
And Yensi, if you’re happy to talk about this, have you experienced any pressures to secure funding or publishing or anything like that that might have impacted your well-being in this stage of your career?
Yensi Flores Bueso: 30:51
Yeah, especially coming from the Global South, where there’s less resources available, you have to compete harder for getting the few opportunities that are there. People who have less opportunities are at disadvantage. Right now, the current systems, what they evaluate are opportunities rather than ability. So, this has definitely impacted my life.
Even in the Global North, researchers live in certain precarity. The contracts are usually just temporary and the salaries are very low in early stages, and there’s a lot of insecurity of what is going to happen next.
You have to compete for the funding or the positions that will let you advance your career. Then you’re always being hyperproductive and that results in burnouts or, in my personal case, I can say that definitely it takes most of my time. It can affect your health, your sleep, for example, and if a woman, for example, has a family, it will be super difficult.
Izzie Clarke: 31:59
That’s also a lot to take on in addition to academic work and research, which in itself is a tasking job on top of all of those other things to contend with. So, in those moments of stress, was there anything or anyone that helped you regain a sense of balance or peace during those more difficult times?
Yensi Flores Bueso: 32:22
Yes. Well, I would say one, mentors. I have been lucky to be supported by my mentors who, in between grants, for example, gave me a contract for a couple of months to help me not be without a job for two or three months, which is especially dangerous for me because my visa depends on my job.
Then my peers, for example, I am lucky that I joined the Global Young Academy (GYA) because I can interact with different people from around the world and hear their perspectives, as well as they hear me. And another thing, I got involved in something called the Coalition for Advancing Research Assessments. These gave me a lot of hope and purpose. It aims to change the way that we evaluate researchers to kind of make space and room for all kind of contributions, not only publications.
Izzie Clarke: 33:13
And I guess that goes back to what you were saying earlier about having the diversity of different strengths and skills in your team, as well, and sharing that with your peers.
So, Lori, from a psychological science perspective, what are some of the common and potentially overlooked signs of burnout or mental strain in research environments?
Lori Foster: 33:33
Yeah, well, I really appreciated a lot of what Yensi was saying there about joining organizations, joining associations. Because, to your question, Izzie, I think one of those signs might be withdrawal. If you see somebody who’s beginning to isolate a little bit more, withdrawal, perfectionism, cynicism, emotional numbness, drops in curiosity, things like that could be symptomatic and problematic.
And some of us are lucky enough to join a lab that is not only productive but supportive, and some of us aren’t. And so then what? What do you do when you’re not in an environment that feels psychologically safe or has a culture that’s productive and supportive, both?
And what I found, especially looking back similar to what Yensi is saying is that joining organizations, associations, professional associations, did mean a world of good because it fulfilled both needs. It was a way to develop a network, contribute professionally and I was making friends and finding people with common interests. And I found that it also accommodates a variety of different career stages if you join the right organization or pick the right ones. So, I really want to emphasize that important point as well.
Izzie Clarke: 34:49
If a listener sees that a colleague is struggling or they themselves actually feel like things are getting a bit much, what should they do?
Lori Foster: 34:58
Certainly if somebody is at risk or harming themselves or others, it’s important to seek help immediately. If it is something other than that where you start to feel that cynicism creeping in, you start to feel that exhaustion, the lack of personal accomplishment like I don’t feel like I’m very good at my job, I don’t feel like I’m accomplishing anything worthwhile…
If you see those early signs of burnout creeping in, might be stepping in and one, just normalizing it when we’re talking about it with other people like, hey, it looks like you might be struggling? Do you want to talk a little bit about what might be going on? That level of social support for ourselves, building in some of the strategies that we’ve been discussing, can go a long way.
Yensi, I’m curious as to what you think from your personal experience.
Yensi Flores Bueso: 35:44
Yeah, peer support is always very important. As a member of the lab, simple things like, let’s go for a coffee and chat. Just to interact and just trying to distract from what it is because that person has been so hyperfocused on the work, it might just help the brain to kind of restart or something like that. I find also that for me, exercising and being in contact with nature has helped me a lot.
Lori Foster: 35:59
Yeah, the exercise, the nature, the sleep, the nutrition… we cannot overestimate how important those are. We know about the psychological benefits of gratitude, really taking a pause, taking a step back and saying, what am I grateful for? Who am I grateful for? And even journaling that, even if you never show it to anyone, we know that this can have positive impacts for ourselves, individually. And of course, if you share that, then it has positive impacts to the person that you’re grateful for.
Izzie Clarke: 36:44
Yeah. With that in mind, what can research institutions do differently to support healthier and more sustainable career paths, especially for early- and mid-career researchers? Yensi, do you want to start on this?
Yensi Flores Bueso: 36:56
Yes. Well, I think that if institutions start recognizing that there is no one size fits all, it will be helpful towards careers that universities not only consider different evaluation for the positions, but also recognize that nowadays science is done by different profiles. There’s not one rigid path in academia. There’s other roles that can be incorporated.
For example, it’s becoming more important to have data managers, project managers and science communicators, or who integrates the research that is done by the university to policymakers. And all these roles are important and are very important for the scientific system. And they, right now, not always exist.
Izzie Clarke: 37:43
Yeah. And Lori, what do you think about that?
Lori Foster: 37:46
Yeah, the first thing I would encourage institutions to do is to make sure that their reward structure is aligned with the long view. If organizations are hoping for long-term productivity, collaboration, innovation, creativity, then that’s what they need to reward. So many times, they’re rewarding competition, short-term wins, quick publications and as many as you can get.
Two, there’s something called the Job Demands–Resources model. And Yensi, you’ve had me thinking about it during this conversation today. So, we could think broadly about what are the demands of the roles and what are the resources? And those demands can be both demands with respect to acquiring grants, demands with respect to publications or even interpersonal demands that you’re having in your lab and your environment.
And then what are the resources, you use that word Yensi earlier, to meet those demands? And those could be internal resources, they could be external resources, but really looking to make sure that our early- and mid-career researchers have the resources externally and internally that are needed to meet those demands.
And then the third and final thing that I’ll say in answer to this one is maybe less at the institutional level and more at the level of the lab, is to create that psychologically safe environment. That’s the environment that Yensi was describing, where each team member can play to their strengths, where they’re not afraid of getting or punished for thinking outside of the box.
Izzie Clarke: 39:13
And so what advice would you both give to early- and mid-career researchers who are struggling, especially in perhaps competitive or underfunded research environments? Yensi, what do you think?
Yensi Flores Bueso: 39:28
I would just say if they cannot find the support within their own lab or small circle, then to look a bit further to the university, and then if not the university, to other communities to get these support. There are more opportunities. The skills that we acquire in research are also very transferable.
Izzie Clarke: 39:49
And Lori?
Lori Foster: 39:51
For starters, I would say just know that you’re not alone. If you’re struggling, you are not alone. Many, if not all, people go through at different stages of their career. It’s not a weakness. And then I’ll also add two very practical things. One is focus on what’s within your control, your habits, your values, your boundaries. And then I would also say track small wins because, in this environment, it’s often the big grant that feels like the win or the publication, but it takes a long time. And so break that down, celebrate and track those small wins.
Izzie Clarke: 40:26
Yeah, it’s simple but effective. Thank you both so much for joining me today. If you’re an early- or mid-career researcher and you want to be part of a community, then join the International Science Council forum for emerging scientists.
Visit the website council.science/forum. I’m Izzie Clarke and next time we’ll be discussing the benefits of science evolving beyond academic laboratories and institutions. Until then.
