Adam Levy 00:00
Hello, I’m Adam Levy, and this is Off Limits: academia’s taboos, a podcast from Nature Careers.
In this episode: coming out.
Academia can think of itself as an area that can ask the difficult questions.
Science, after all, is all about getting to the bottom of things, seeking an understanding of the world around us in all its complexity.
But when it comes to the complexity of researchers themselves, academia can often struggle to have the tough conversations.
This series will look at some of those all-too-often unspoken topics, and we will speak to researchers about what it means to feel that a part of oneself is unwelcome within research.
Speaker 1 00:55
I didn’t mention it to any colleagues for many years…
Speaker 2 00:58
Religious scientists do feel like they have to hide their faith often, because very negative public things are often said…
Speaker 3 01:06
People that look like me, we are typically not offered those opportunities in the same way…
Adam Levy 01:12
This series will look at some of those all-too-often unspoken topics, and we will speak to researchers about what it means to feel a part of oneself is unwelcome within research.
And in today’s episode, the first of our series, we’ll be looking at what it means to be LGBTQ+ in academia.
Around the world, people face discrimination and prejudice for their identities. But for many, there can be profound legal consequences too.
There are 65 countries where LGBTQ+ identities or acts remain illegal, under threat of death penalty in some nations.
In a moment, we’ll speak with a young researcher who proudly shares her story on social media.
But first, let me introduce you to Shannon Bros. She’s a professor emerita from San Jose State University department of biological sciences.
Speaker 4 02:10
During her career….
Shannon Bros 02:12
I did a very broad range of topics for research, because I allowed my grad students to figure out what they wanted to pursue, and then I would help them do it.
Adam Levy 02:20
And during her career, Shannon came out as a trans woman, trans meaning that she was assigned male at birth.
She started living her life openly as a woman in the 90s.
I wanted to speak to her about her life in academia that followed, as well as her life leading up to this transition. And when she started to understand herself as a woman.
Shannon Bros 02:43
I was pretty fairly on I mean, I was pretty young.
But I didn’t understand why I was so different until I really started talking with other boys a lot.
And then I realized I didn’t think the same way they did.
And I was really confused. I thought, what’s wrong with me?
Adam Levy 03:02
And how long did it take to, I suppose, put a name to that and understand what that difference was?
Shannon Bros 03:08
Well, you have to understand at that time in my life there was nobody I had ever heard of that was like me.
And so for me, this was completely uncharted territory, and something I could never imagine could ever happen, right, so?
But I ended up working as a woman secretary when I was relatively young, in between my last year of high school and my first year of college. In 1970 I was, I was working as a female part-time secretary, and I was assaulted and raped, and that affected me dramatically.
Adam Levy 03:44
And how did that, what must have been a very traumatic experience, influence your relationship with your gender and your decisions around what to be open with regarding your gender?
Shannon Bros 03:54
Well, I mean, for one thing, I realized that I could, I could be killed, and I think subconsciously, that directed me to completely forget what, you know, my issues were.
I still knew I had issues, but I didn’t realize how deep they went until later, when my memories came back.
I am naturally an extrovert and so for me to become a super-introvert was really, you know, it’s kind of what happened. I just withdrew.
You know, once I knew what was my situation, I didn’t think I could do anything about it, but eventually I realized I didn’t really have a choice.
It was going to happen one way or the other, whether I wanted to or not. I could just feel it, sort of, like, a pressure building in me.
You got to understand it. I had a perfect life. I had a fabulous marriage. I had kids. I have always been respected in my department.
The last thing I wanted to do was transition.
Adam Levy 04:44
And you describe it as this pressure building. So was that throughout your academic career, up to this point then that you kind of felt that?
Shannon Bros 04:53
Yeah, and it kept growing. It was so frustrating, because I felt like I was, I was on a train heading for a cliff, you know.
It just felt like I was getting this amazing train wreck, and my whole life was going to become untenable.
Adam Levy: 05:07
And so what ended up releasing that pressure?
Adam Levy 05:11
Well, finally, I, you know, I just talked with my spouse, and, you know, said what was going on, and that was the end of our marriage.
And at that point, and I just went forward, and that was 1997.
Adam Levy 05:24
And what did going forward in your academic environment, in your academic life, look like?
Shannon Bros 05:30
Okay, so that was really interesting.
So before I did my transition, I was well respected. I was groomed to be chair and whatnot.
When I transitioned, everything stopped. I had a huge friend base by that time. I was confident, you know, what was what I’m doing. Everything collapsed overnight.
Adam Levy 05:50
Can you explain exactly how you ended up coming out in your academic life?
Shannon Bros 05:55
Okay, so I was working as a visiting professor at the Moss Landing Marine Labs. I was going to transition at the next year when I came back to my normal university at San Jose State.
And that was the plan, to go back in the fall.
So this was in the spring. And I I needed to let people know what was going on with me. So I sent letters and pictures and tried to explain what was going on with me to everybody.
And then I decided I was going to go home as me for the first time. So that was a plan.
Well over the break, spring break, I found when I came back, I couldn’t switch back. And I just, I knew I couldn’t do it.
I just felt like such a phoney standing up there trying to pretend to be a male again.
And I finally just said, “Hey, you know,” I said, I told the class, “ Look, I have something to tell you.”
And I explained to them what was going on. I said, “ Look, if you want to leave and not come back to this class, fine. If you want to talk to me some more, (this was in grad school).” So I said “We can go over and have a beer, and you can ask me any questions you want.”
And much to my great surprise, they all stayed.
And that was, that was how I came out.
I came to work as a woman the next day, and that was the end. I never went back.
Adam Levy 07:17
And now you mentioned that a lot of aspects of your career kind of crumbles after this point. Where did you go from there? How did you begin to rebuild?
Shannon Bros 07:28
Well, you know, you have to understand that this was the loneliest time in my whole life.
I’ve never, ever felt so alone. It was, it was awful. And I had to rebuild every relationship I had. Every single one.
But I was determined to do it, and I also knew that one of the important things was, is that everyone around me didn’t ask to be transitioned, but they got transitioned when I did, right?
The person they knew changed. I spent a lot of energy saying, “Don’t worry about pronouns, just get to know me again. See that I’m this pretty much the same person.”
So I worked really hard at trying to make people comfortable with who I was without, you know, bringing up the fact that they had to have their pronouns right, or whatever. And that turned out to be a good plan.
Adam Levy 08:19
And throughout this period of transition and building this acceptance, did you have to deal with issues like, like, negative comments from your peers and other people within your department?
Shannon Bros 08:31
Oh, yeah, but you know. So I’ll give you the negative ones first.
There was a person in our department who’d been a former friend, and she wanted to ban me from the bathrooms.
Fortunately, the other women in the department stood up for me.
So the women were really supportive. That was really helpful.
But eventually everybody tried hard, and it was up to me to make it easier for them.
When I did that, then things started to come together again.
Adam Levy 09:03
Now, of course, you’re based in the United States. But a big part of many academic careers is travel. Is that something that has been at all challenging as a trans woman?
Shannon Bros 09:14
The first time I did it was when I went to Australia. It was challenging for me personally, but not otherwise.
I was so afraid that someone was going to find out what I was. I was just, I was just terrified that someone was going to discover I was trans.
Just flying, just being out and, you know, in a completely different country, but all by myself, I was terrified.
I went there. I did. I got to meet some incredible people, and they’re all still good friends.
It was such an important growth thing for me, because it gave me the experiences to understand that I have courage and I can do things.
So it was really huge growth for me.
Adam Levy 09:56
Now, how was transitioning from living your life as a man to living your life openly as a woman, shifted how you move through academia and experience, well, experienced sexism?
Shannon Bros 10:10
Well, I’ll tell you, it was a shock to me to really to understand how heavily sexism still was. I thought it was pretty good. At first, you know, when I started getting a lot of weird stuff, I thought, “Well, it’s because you’re trans.”
But the more I talk to other women, the more I realized, “Oh, wait, no, this is not just me. This is everybody.”
And you know, I’ll give you an example. When I used to be in department meeting, I would come up with an idea, and everybody would listen.
After I transitioned and I did that, it was like I didn’t say anything. And then maybe five minutes later, or even less, one of the guys would come up with the same idea, and everybody would think it was fabulous. That was kind of typical.
The other thing was about lab space. Women are constantly fighting to get lab space, you know, at least in my university.
But the guys always got the best spaces. They had better access to equipment, they had better grants. So there was kind of a built-in, like, ”keep you down here” level.
And that was really interesting to me. I hadn’t expected that at all.
Adam Levy 11:13
Apart from, of course, living your life true to yourself, were there aspects of now living your life as a woman that there were positives, kind of offsetting these negative experiences you’re talking about?
Shannon Bros 11:26
Absolutely, I became the best teacher I’ve ever been. I became a fabulous advisor.
I had, I just I was so lucky to have both visions of both sides of the fence that it made it much easier for me to relate to students, no matter what gender they were.
And it helped me see cultures better too, because now I was looking, I was paying attention to, what are the body cues, etc?
And so my teaching went so much better after I transitioned.
Adam Levy 11:56
Now, of course, a lot’s happened in the decades since you came out, and trans issues have become increasingly visible and increasingly politicized in the US and worldwide.
Is this feeding into your life as an academic?
Shannon Bros 12:12
Well, not so much as an academic right now, because I’m retired, but it’s definitely feeding into my life. I mean, you know, I feel so bad for the young people.
My daughter’s trans. And I worry about her all the time. So I didn’t want that for my kids. I don’t want that for anybody.
Adam Levy 12:29
Well, on that note, is there anything you’d hope that other cisgender academics would do to help support their trans colleagues?
Shannon Bros 12:37
I think the main thing that they could try and do is understand that this individual has got to go through puberty again. So they’re going to be weird at first.
You know, they’re trying to figure out who they are. They’re going to dress funny, they’re going to talk funny, they’re going to just be weird because they’re learning to be a person all over again.
And I think what would have been really helpful for me is having more of the women come in and teach me more about what it was like to be female in our population.
The guys were pretty (you know, it was really funny) at first, they were really hands off, you know, but then after a while, everybody just knew me as Shannon, and it was fine.
And the other thing you have to think about is all of their memories with you are as another gender. And so whenever something comes up from the past, they will use the wrong gender.
So it’s that dichotomy of remembrance of the past which is real, right, and kind of connecting that with the present, which is also real, but completely different.
So that’s probably the biggest challenge for anybody, and I think a lot of it goes to the trans person.
Adam Levy 13:49
Now, you mentioned when you were kids, transness wasn’t even a thing. It wasn’t on your radar. As your life continued and as you are out, were you able to build some community with other trans people or other queer people?
Shannon Bros 14:07
Oh, yeah, because for a long time, I was a token trans person at the university. So yes, I did.
They would come to me after a while. The only thing that was really funny is that I really didn’t have that much to offer about, you know, because my experiences were back in the, you know, early Pleistocene.
And they were, and these young people were like, just like, no, not even really close to what my life was like.
So I couldn’t help them that way, but what I could help them do was kind of recognize what they needed to do, what their role in this whole thing was.
Adam Levy 14:43
Do you have hopes for academia, not just in terms of how it accepts trans people, but in terms of how it accepts all differences?
Shannon Bros 14:52
I am really worried about the future of our universities. The pressures to bend to political will is terrifying to me.
I think we, you know, we’re going to lose a lot of the the way forward to diversity. So, yeah, I’m, I’m really worried about the future of academia.
The voices that need to be heard are being silenced or persecuted. And so in our country right now, this is a very unsafe place for trans people, and that’s not just academe, but you know, it’s everywhere.
Adam Levy 15:29
Shannon Bros there.
As Shannon mentioned, transitioning expanded her worldview, giving her greater insights into the experiences, not just of differing genders, but of different backgrounds too.
And for some researchers who sit at the intersection of several persecuted groups, those experiences are part of everyday life in academia.
That’s the case for Kihana Wilson, a PhD student in physics at the University of Michigan.
Kihana is a Black queer woman in a field that remains disproportionately white and male in the US.
And she’s spoken about her experiences extensively online.
Find her by searching for the Astro Stud. But more on that in a second.
We started off by discussing how and when Kihana decided how out she wanted to be in academia.
Kihana Wilson 16:22
I don’t think it was ever a conscious decision that it’s just been me.
And that has been very unapologetic about being me and showing up fully as myself in academic spaces.
But I will say that so it wasn’t until the very beginning of college that I sort of started coming into my masculinity and started realizing that, you know, I’m, I’m a stud, and my gender presentation is more masculine of centre.
And quick note, a stud is a, at least in the LGBTQ community, a term for Black, masculine-presenting lesbians.
Adam Levy 17:00
And I guess all those parts play a part in your story.
I’m curious whether, as you kind of came into this presentation of yourself, whether you found it challenging or scary in any way, in academia?
Kihana Wilson 17:16
Certainly challenging. Being at the intersection of so many historically excluded and underrepresented, marginalized identities definitely made things very challenging.
There were definitely obstacles. There were a lot of microaggressions, and still are, at times, a lot of, sort of, just systemic barriers.
Because in a lot of ways, academia isn’t really designed to include an equitable way people like myself.
Black scholars, Black women scholars, you know, Black queer women scholars, especially who are so visibly non-conforming and sort of outside of the box when it comes to presentation and how you’re supposed to carry yourself, and how you’re supposed to speak in academia, how you’re supposed to dress in academia.
Adam Levy 18:04
You mentioned a sense of barriers. Have you had specific moments or challenges that have made you feel “Okay, this is a space that isn’t designed for someone like me?”
Kihana Wilson 18:16
For sure, one of the more recurring things is this idea of the invisibility/hypervisibility paradox, where either I’m super hypervisible because, you know, of how I look being a Black woman, one in a space where there aren’t many Black women of any other sort of axis of identity.
And on top of that, being such a non-conforming Black woman, people are ready to sort of catch me slipping, or catch me making a mistake, or find an excuse to sort of doubt me.
And then the flip side of that is being invisible, so people ignoring me or dismissing my ideas, on top of the fact of being, you know, a Black queer woman in science and physics in particular, is the fact that I come from a low income background.
And a lot of these hard sciences, like physics, for instance, there is sort of a set bar that people presume that you should meet just immediately coming in.
And usually those standards are set by certain privileges, like access to particular educational resources.
And that’s one of the ways that systemically science can be designed to sort of exclude some.
Adam Levy 19:31
Now, I’m also a physicist by training, but for me, moving through my academia as a white man, you know, I had plenty of mentors and role models who I could relate to in many different ways.
What does it mean to you to maybe have fewer people who have gone before you, who you can have that relationship with?
Kihana Wilson 19:53
So that’s actually excellent question, and really cuts at the heart of a large part of my own journey in academia, in the sense that I suffered a lot of imposter syndrome and self-doubt at times because I had such severe lack of representation around me.
And it really affected, you know, my ability to focus at times, my drive at times. I remember one moment, and in my undergraduate time where I sort of hit a very low point, because I felt just so extremely isolated.
And physics is already hard enough without you adding on all these extra things, as I’m sure you know.
And so I was just, man I was going through it. And I found myself in a moment of desperation one evening in my dorm room, just like desperately looking up other Black women in physics to see how many people have done this before me who look like me.
And it was in that moment that I found the only two other Black women in physics at that time so who were, who were both PhD students when I was in college.
And I reached out, and that honestly, really changed my undergraduate experience for the better.
One of those women is now my best friend to this day, and like I very much admire her and and her experience and her journey. And being introduced to other Black physicists during my college time through her was truly transformative.
Community is so, so, so critical for people like me in these spaces.
Adam Levy 21:35
I’m curious whether beyond this community that you had to go out and find for yourself, these were topics that you were able to speak about with other colleagues, or with your institutions?
Kihana Wilson 21:46
I don’t think, at least at that time, I really had these conversations, because I just felt so isolated.
I think nowadays I’m not at all afraid to sort of bring up these conversations in places where, you know, I might be the only one in the room.
Because I know that background and that experience is very powerful, and it’s it’s important to bring up in these spaces, especially in spaces that claim to want to be better about these things and to support its more marginalized students.
And I think it’s also important for other people to be aware of that if they’re part of a majority, their experience is not the same for other people.
There may be other people who may be dealing with other things.
Adam Levy 22:28
And when you do speak out in spaces like that, what kind of reaction do you get? Is it ever challenging? Is there of any kind of pushback?
Kihana Wilson 22:37
There can be. So people can definitely get defensive and try to shut you down. Other times, people can be open to hearing other people’s experiences and acknowledging ways that they could help make the space better.
Adam Levy 22:50
Now, while we’re talking about you being outspoken, you’ve, I mean, really, taken that a step further by discussing your relationship with academia really actively online.
Your Astro Stud online for people who want to give you a follow.
But what’s it meant to you to do this?
Kihana Wilson 23:08
Yeah, so the idea of the Astro Stud was really born from the same place, honestly, of needing community.
My mission and my ethos in that is just unapologetic representation and using representation as a starting point for increasing, sort of, the accessibility of these scientific spaces to people who can relate, in some way, to any aspect of my identity.
And since I have many there are a lot of people who can relate. I wanted to set out to sort of inspire people and uplift people, specifically targeting, you know, Black people, Black women, Black queer people.
And through that, I’ve found that I’ve inspired so many more people that I could have ever imagined. And it’s been, it’s been a great journey to ride along.
Adam Levy 23:57
You speak about it so positively. I’m curious, because academia can be quite a, I suppose, conventional, tight arena.
I’m curious whether any other academics or people on Instagram feel like this isn’t how an academic should be speaking about academia, and in some way, reject it for those kinds of reasons.
Kihana Wilson 24:17
Since the very day that I started I’ve received a lot of sort of online abuse and hate from strangers, random people, and also people in academia who don’t believe science communication is a worthwhile thing for academics to pursue, or that it somehow lessens you as an academic.
I’ll also say that in some academic environments they do appreciate and value the sort of outreach.
And it’s sort of those environments that I’ve sought out for myself. I try to avoid the very, you know, old guard, stuffy physics environments.
Adam Levy 24:54
I’m curious whether the way you move through both the academic space and the online space has changed at all with the second election of Donald Trump.
Kihana Wilson 25:06
So I think what I’ve come to is that I think it’s more important now than ever to continue doing what I’m doing and continue showing up the way that I’m showing up, because my very existence and the existence of many people who can relate to me are, you know, now at risk.
And I don’t at all intend to sort of retreat away from that and make myself small or silence myself, especially since such a large part of my science communication effort is to encourage others to be unapologetic about themselves and to not make themselves small or silent.
For those of us for whom it’s more or less safe or our safety isn’t threatened, I think it’s paramount in this time for us to continue showing up as we do.
Adam Levy 25:57
What’s your hope, then, for academia as a whole, or perhaps specifically for physics?
Kihana Wilson 26:03
My hope is that the way that we think about how science and academia should be organized, the ideas we have about who are true scientists and how scientists should look and fit into academic spaces, evolves and expands such that people who may otherwise have an interest aren’t turned away because of all of these invisible barriers.
And I also hope that those of us who are here already and doing the work already in these spaces, that they actually listen to us, they actually take in what we’re saying and what we’re trying to do.
And another gripe I guess I have about these spaces is how elitist they can be. And I think it’s very old-fashioned, and I don’t think in many respects it’s necessary to do good science.
Adam Levy 27:00
Do you have any thoughts on what academics who are listening can do to help dismantle those kinds of invisible barriers that you’ve mentioned?
Kihana Wilson 27:09
It takes being very perceptive and actually taking in community feedback. If you look around at your community and there’s an obvious issue of diversity, well, that’s one place to start.
What sort of systems or standard policies, but unspoken things, exist in your spaces that would make it feel unwelcome to certain groups of people? And what can you do to alleviate that?
And if you have people from marginalized backgrounds in your spaces already, what can you ask of them about their experiences within your space, in your institution or your department that would make it more welcoming but also more safe for them to thrive in that space, and therefore potentially invite more diversity within that space.
And when you ask them, the next step is to actually, right, listen and put into place systems or policies that would improve your department or your institution in some concrete, measurable way.
We’re scientists, right? It’s, it’s not hard for us to measure the effects of things, or see whether something is working or not, and come up with a potential different solution.
Adam Levy 28:35
That was Kihana Wilson. And this theme of searching for new, meaningful ways to arrange academia is one we’re going to encounter time and time again throughout this series, albeit in widely different forms.
Next week, for example, we’re taking a look at the sharp line that is often drawn between academic research and activism.
Speaker 6 28:57
Like I didn’t know, will I be safe on campus is it’s like, what? What does that mean? Now? What will the students think?
Adam Levy 29:07
Until then, this has been Off limits: academia’s taboos, a podcast from Nature Careers.
Thanks for listening. I’m Adam Levy.
