Marina Abramović Talks Divas, Influencers, Fashion, and ‘Masquerade’

Lining up Marina Abramović for any occasion takes some coordinating, but the itinerant artist broke out of her routine for a Q&A Sunday night in New York.

Following a performance of “Masquerade,” the immersive take on “Phantom of the Opera,” where her art is featured in the set, she spoke about her practice, divas, influencers and audiences with the show’s creative director Shai Baitel. About 80 people — most of whom had just performed in the Diane Paulus-directed show — sat on velvet chairs beneath a giant chandelier in what was once Lee’s Art store. Addressing the unusual hour, she said, “Normally I am in bed at 10:30 [p.m.]”

Her recent endeavors have included receiving the 2025 Praemium Imperiale for Sculpture at a ceremony in Tokyo, staging “12 Years of Ulay,” putting on “Balkan Erotic Epic” and designing jewelry with Chantecler Capri.

Reminded how after seeing the show’s scene with freaks at the carnival had overwhelmed her, Abramovic said, “I really was the most ugly kid I could imagine. Now, I look a little bit better. In my mind, I looked horrible. I had flat feet, baggy shoes with bad leather. I had a big nose with a haircut to here [gesturing above her left ear] and lots of pimples. I have glasses. I actually break them all the time. I sit on them. I put them in the window and close the window,” she said. “So, I only started to feel beauty, when I started performing. When you perform, you’re playing this concert that you put in your head. It’s completely different. So the body that you’re presenting is not just my body, it’s the human body. And this makes all the difference.”

As for how theatrical performances differ from artistic ones, Abramovic said that at the age of 20, she hated theater for being “fake,” with women and men playing roles of other people, having to rehearse those roles and the fact that the public was in the dark. That is no longer the case with so many lifelike touches, real emotions and interplay with the audiences. “But now if you ask me at my age [nearly 79], I love it,” she said, adding that working with dance, opera and theatrical troupes have changed that. 

From her perspective, the audience is everything. Noting how choreographer Martha Graham said, “Wherever a dancer stands is holy ground,” Abramovic said, “I used to say, ‘Wherever the public stands is holy ground.’ To me, the public is everything. I don’t see any point to perform at home. I really have to have a stage to perform to have the situation and the space, where you actually create in concert with the public.”

And while Abramović famously held strangers’ gazes for hours on end without blinking, during “The Artist Is Always Present,” she is always paying attention. She said, “My work is highly emotional. If anybody in the audience leaves the room, I always have to see, if he just went to the toilet or if he comes back. If he comes back, I know that I’m doing well. You have to be there 100 percent to hold the public and then interact with the public.”

Suggesting that any form of art is not initially acceptable to many, Abramovic compared that reaction to how Mahatma Gandhi said the public first laughed at him, then they ignored him, then they fought him and then he won. “These are exactly the stages that artwork goes through,” she said.

Asked about the idea of muses and divas, Abramovic said, “This is not really something that the person is doing by themself. It’s the public projecting something onto them. The people need some kind of diva and something to worship. I really don’t think the diva is any good for anybody. I think you should just work hard, be really passionate, and you will get your success.”

Unprompted, she questioned another pop culture constant before turning philosophical. “To me the most unbelievable business is the influencers. I can’t understand this at all. What do you actually do?” She said, “It’s really important to keep life in perspective — what are we in society? What are we doing today? What is our actual function and message?”

Stressing the importance of consciousness, the artist said that if everyone had it, regardless if they are a politician or a factory worker, society would benefit from that. She dismissed the idea that human beings, especially in America, are valued based on the amount of money they have. Referring to news coverage of Tesla’s $1 trillion package for Elon Musk, Abramovic cursed at the thought incredulously.

Regarding her own preparation for an emotional role like “The Artist Is Always Present,” Abramovic said that she prefers a year of preparation. She only eats at night, and that is a special type of food. She also only drinks water at night. Once the year is over, Abramovic said she “does everything wrong. I eat chocolate. I watch bad movies [laughs]. I really like to be lazy,” she said, adding that the seriousness returns with a new project. “But you know, you can’t be perfect all of the time. I am full of contradictions and I love contradictions. I like to share with everybody because all humans are contradictions.”

Afterward, Abramović shared her take on the current state of fashion. She said, “I love fashion and always have. Fashion is in a huge crisis right now. With all the artists moving around to different houses is a mess. They really have to pay more attention to the young generation. We need young people to come into the fashion industry more. They’re circulating too many of the same people [around designer companies]. This is really boring.”

That said, she allowed that some are original, but originality comes from the same resources — Comme des Garçons, Margiela, John Galliano and Riccardo Tisci. “But we need new people,” Abramović said.

One of fashion’s more innovative designers, Melitta Baumeister, and her partner Michael Plata, were on hand to catch every last word at the “‘Masquerade’ After Dark” event. (It turned out Abramović wears Baumeister’s designs.) Having unveiled her first shoe collaboration with Nike in a Chelsea art gallery last month, Baumeister could relate to the immersive artistic experience. Scrolling through images of the recent unveiling on his phone, Plata spoke about the “Run Like No One Is Watching” theme, and how the pair could relate since they had to put their sports activities on pause due to work demands. 

The idea was to step into the subconsciousness of a woman, by ringing her doorbell and being greeted by a woman, who is obsessed with building butter sculptures — including one that was a replica of Baumeister’s head. She’s building butter sculptures, and saying that he has “deadlines — deadlines — and she doesn’t get to run,” the designer said. “This is basically me overworking and not caring about your fitness or wellness. You know you should go running but you’re obsessed with what you’re doing and what you’re better at,” said Baumeister, the 2025 Cooper Hewitt’s National Design Award winner for fashion.

Visitors to the Nike installation also saw an actor trying out poses, if they might run, in a bathroom, and then another actor scrolling in bed looking at random running videos on Instagram. Then there was a “dream room,” where shoes appear to be moving by themselves, and a guide, who takes you through the space. True to form, when touring the gallery space that they wound up using, the pair were more interested in the non-exhibition area that included a kitchen, bathroom and speakeasy type entrance for more of an immersive effect.