Adam Levy 00:00
Hello. I’m Adam Levy, and this is Mind Matters: Academia’s Mental Health Crisis, a podcast from Nature Careers.
In this episode, the toll that harassment can take on mental health.
Throughout this series, researchers we’ve spoken with have emphasized the importance of social environment, inside and outside of academia for safeguarding their mental health.
But some researchers not only struggle to find support, but also face open hostility through their work.
This can come, for example, in the form of discrimination, and later in the episode, we’ll be speaking with a researcher about their experiences and the lessons they draw from them.
But scientists can also find themselves under fire for their science itself, especially when investigating highly-politicized topics.
This has been the experience for Krutika Kuppalli.
Krutika is an infectious disease physician with a background in pandemic preparedness and global health based in Dallas, Texas.
She worked at the World Health Organization during the pandemic on COVID and Monkeypox, and her expertise and public outreach during the first years of the COVID pandemic brought harassment in several forms.
We spoke a few months ago, in August 2024, and I kicked off our conversation by asking what her work looked like as the pandemic began to spread in 2020.
Krutika Kuppalli: 01:34
Given my background in emerging infectious diseases, I have an acute interest in that area.
So when we first started hearing about this unidentified in China, back at the end of 2019 I started following it and picking up on it. And it was, you know, interesting to see how, as my friends and I, who were just chatting about it on social media, our following started to increase
You know, I think there’s a lot of different areas of research that I was working on. It was trying to understand the evolution of the virus in immune-compromised hosts. That was really my clinical side of things, but also trying to understand how to improve access to care. I would do all that during the day, and then, you know, in between and during other times, I would be working on research and public health outreach and different things like that.
Adam Levy: 02:28
And can you describe what you mean when you mentioned public health outreach in this context?
Krutika Kuppalli: 02:33
One component was the communication I was doing on social media, right?
Trying to help educate and inform people about this new pathogen. The second aspect was doing scientific communication via the news media.
So I was frequently a guest on various different news networks, And I was asked to do podcasts.
And then I think the third part of it was really trying to reach the affected communities.
So I think there were a lot of different components the work that I was doing.
Adam Levy: 03:08
At the time, did you view this kind of public outreach work as having any any risk to it, any risk to yourself?
Krutika Kuppalli: 03:16
Yeah, that’s a great question. I didn’t. You know I’m the person who kind of always jumps into the fire. It really did happen by accident.
And then when it happened, you’re so busy in the middle of it, you’re not thinking about all these other things that could happen.
Initially, it was, you know, quite positive, right?
Because I think in the early days of the pandemic, there was a lot of solidarity, right?
People didn’t really know what was going on. People were trying to understand what was going on and learn how to protect themselves.
So I think early on, there was a lot of encouragement, there was a lot of appreciation. That really made me want to do it, because I wanted to help inform people.
Adam Levy: 03:56
Now, as the pandemic evolved, of course, that kind of reaction from the general public also evolved.
How did you notice that in the responses you were getting as the pandemic and the vaccines became increasingly politicized?
Krutika Kuppalli: 04:11
Well, I think a couple of things happened. One, you know, I started being in the media more, and I think that whenever you put yourself out there, you do become a target.
And I don’t think that was something I had thought about.
So I think that, you know, I did start to see comments that people would write. I had someone who made a Twitter profile that had my same information and was putting misinformation out there.
I think things got a little bit worse because I testified before US Congress twice about COVID.
The second time was in September of 2020. I had helped write the US guidelines for having safe elections during COVID.
I think most people can remember the elections in the United States in 2020 were very politicized, and so really, after I started, I did that, things got worse.
I had some of these groups post incorrect information about me, that mischaracterized what I said.
I had my personal information put out there on social media, and so people started contacting me, saying not very nice things, and I had people who threatened me as well.
Adam Levy: 05:21
Could you share at all how this affected you and your willingness to do this kind of work?
Krutika Kuppalli: 05:26
It was really hard. So yes, it definitely affected me.
I think sometimes people forget that those of us who were putting ourselves out there, we also had, you know, our regular work, we have our personal life, and all this begins to start seeping into that, and that’s what happened for me.
I just started a new job on the other side of the country, so I had moved during COVID, and I had been in my new place for only a couple days, and someone called me on my phone, and, you know, threatened me, and that was really scary, because I was in a place where I didn’t know anybody,
And in my perspective, you know, I was doing this to try and help. At times, you know, I did have to kind of say no to things to protect my own wellbeing.
And also the work was really intense, particularly when I was seeing patients, right? I remember on Christmas 2020, getting consulted to see 15 patients who had COVID.
You know, I did develop nervousness. It definitely affected my relationships with colleagues and even my family. And I didn’t even realize that.
It took me some time to really figure out and understand what was going on. And it’s something that I still kind of am going through today. It’s not as bad as it was, but it was a really hard time for me.
Adam Levy: 06:45
Could you give any more insight into how you were able to cope with these kinds of threats and the support you were able to seek at the time?
Krutika Kuppalli: 06:55
For me, part of what was hard, as I mentioned, is I moved to a new city where I didn’t really know anyone, and that was really hard because I didn’t have the emotional support.
I developed remote relationships with people, and I think we all tried to help support each other during this time, which was really helpful, and we tried to share how we dealt with different experiences.
I think the other thing that I did, which I didn’t expect, was I got a dog, and that helped a lot for me and my emotional wellbeing, just to have someone who gives you unconditional love support and is always there for you, right? And so it was a good way for me to kind of divert my mind and not focus on this.
But, you know, it was really hard. I didn’t get a lot of support from my institution. And being alone, you know, there were times that I felt really scared and I didn’t feel clear on how to handle that.
Adam Levy: 07:49
In these kinds of situations where threats are made, it’s often advised that people go to the police. Is that something that you tried? And if so, what were your experiences?
Krutika Kuppalli: 08:00
Yeah, I did try going to the police on two different occasions, and my experience was not great.
After my information was put all over the internet, they had asked me if I had thought about getting a weapon, which, to me, was not the appropriate solution.
I think that, as a person who’s never used a weapon before, me having a weapon would probably just cause more problems, and I don’t really think violence is the answer, right?
Adam Levy: 08:28
Now often when researchers are attacked for being outspoken on research, they’re not just attacked for the research in question. They’re also often attacked along lines of race and gender. Is that something that you also experienced?
Krutika Kuppalli: 08:42
Definitely, in regards to my race, I was targeted and had people say, really, not kind things. They, you know, made assumptions about where I’m from, you know, saying: go back to your own home. I don’t want to listen to some person who is from another country.
I mean, just really horrible things, things that, quite frankly, I probably blocked out now,
And then. I do think, you know, being a woman also didn’t help.
You know, I talked to my colleagues who were male, who would say the same thing that I would, but they wouldn’t get nearly attacked as much.
And so I do think that there’s some underlying misogyny that comes through on the attacks that happen, and that makes it hard, right?
It’s hard enough to be out there doing this. And I do think, in the way that women are attacked, our credibility is undermined. And also, you know, there are threats of physical and sexual violence as well.
Adam Levy: 09:37
And has that feeling maintained I suppose, now, do you feel any nervousness about conducting media interviews and speaking to people like me, I suppose?
Krutika Kuppalli: 09:46
I don’t anymore. I think part of what happened is a year into the pandemic. So in August of 2021 I ended up taking a position at the World Health Organization, And in that position I wasn’t doing any more media. So I think having a break from the media helped.
I’ve gained some perspective on not just how to protect myself, but also how to interact with the people who maybe don’t say very nice things, and basically I just ignore it.
So I’ve put restrictions on things, So I don’t see the things people say, and I think that helps a lot too.
Adam Levy: 10:24
What did it actually mean to you to be doing all of this kind of work and then all this public outreach on top of that, ultimately, with the goal of helping people during an incredibly difficult time, and then to be met with such aggressive hatred in response to that?
Krutika Kuppalli: 10:42
For me, it was hard to separate some of the comments because they felt so personal, right?
When in reality, they would have made those comments to anybody, right? And I was an easy target because of the things we talked about.
And so I think when I started to learn that people had ulterior motives for doing it, right?
Trying to spread misinformation, disinformation, some people trying to bring you down, to bring themselves up,
I think that it helped when I started to reframe that a little bit, People will try to bring you down, especially If you are doing a good job at it.
Adam Levy: 11:22
Some researchers listening to this might work on highly-politicized topics and want to speak out about them, or maybe quite scared about speaking out about these topics.
Do you have any advice for researchers in those kinds of positions?
Krutika Kuppalli: 11:37
Yeah, you know, I think my biggest piece of advice is to do what you feel comfortable with, right?
And if at any point you don’t feel comfortable, it’s okay to stop doing it, to take a step back and take care of yourself.
I think protecting your own emotional wellbeing is the most important thing. And that was something that took me a while to recognize.
It is important to find people who can be your social support and emotional support during this time.
I think it’s also important for you know, if you need it, to also get professional help, right?
I think that these types of attacks can make you anxious. It can make you feeling depressed and scared, and so I think that that’s another way to help support yourself.
Adam Levy: 12:18
And when we’re talking about support, what can institutions do to step in and actually support their staff who are maybe going through these kinds of experiences?
Krutika Kuppalli: 12:27
Yeah, I think that’s a great question, because, you know, institutions do benefit off of what their scientists and researchers are doing, right?
And so I do think it’s the onus on the institution to also have policies in place to try and help support those of us that are speaking out, if it just not be, you know, someone to talk to and make sure that they’re doing okay.
In certain situations, harassment can come to people at their institution, and I think there needs to be a zero tolerance policy for that as well.
I think it’s important for institutions, really, to pay attention to how individuals who are engaging in media and social media are being treated.
You know, I’ve heard of stories of colleagues who felt very isolated, who struggled very significantly with mental health. And I think this is something that really isn’t talked about much, right, like how significantly it impacted people.
It’s hard for people to admit any of that publicly. I think that’s why it’s still important for institutions to protect the people that work for them.
I think it’s probably one of the most important things that they can do, because if you don’t, you lose those valuable people, right? They leave, they go elsewhere, they retire.
And that’s really sad, because you lose that valuable technical expertise.
And so you have less of those people and more of the other people having their voices heard.
Adam Levy: 13:57
That was Kritika kupali. Kritika discussed that among the harassment for her work, she was also attacked for who she is along lines of gender and race.
And this is something that some academics experience within academia.
Atom Lesiak is based in Houston, Texas, and is the founder of science education and entertainment organization, Atomic Brains.
They are trans nonbinary, which means they don’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth, and do not identify entirely as either man or woman.
Being open about their gender, as well as actively working in support of diversity, equity and inclusion, has brought profound challenges.
These have, in turn, led Atom to question their career in academia, as they discussed in a column for Nature’s careers section back in 2023.
So to find out more about this career path, we started out by discussing how Atom chose to come out to disclose their gender identity early in their academic journey.
Atom Lesiak: 14:59
First was coming out while I was an undergraduate. And when I applied for graduate school I had been out enough that I really didn’t want to go to an institution that couldn’t, wasn’t going to be welcoming of my transness.
And so in my graduate school applications, I came out very, let’s say aggressively, where I would tell institutions in the letter: if you can’t handle me being transgender, then don’t accept me into your program.
And most of them did not. So I ended up not getting into most of the graduate schools that I applied to, except for one. The scholarship was too big to put down.
But when I actually arrived for graduate school, I found that nobody there appears to have known about my coming out in my application letter.
I’m not sure if anybody read it or not, but nobody said anything to me when I was there, and unfortunately during the first day of classes, we had a possibly trans professor.
And coming back from class, my cohort started saying some of the most difficult-to-hear transphobic comments I’ve ever heard.
I remember thinking to myself how scary it was going to be to have to come out to them.
And so I decided to stay closeted while in graduate school for safety purposes. Even though, on the side, I was going out to this rural clinic and secretly starting my gender transition.
Adam Levy: 16:35
And then, of course, now at this point, you’re, you know, speaking to me, you’ve penned a piece for Nature’s careers column. It’s very much a part of your, I suppose, public, public profile.
How did you get from that point, at the beginning of your graduate degree, to this point today, in terms of how visible you are?
Atom Lesiak: 16:56
Yeah, that was a slow process as well.
So I was in graduate school for six years, and then for a postdoc, I moved to a bigger city.
So the first few years, I was very much stressed out about my perception in the workplace, and so I stayed closeted for about a year and a half before I really just got the courage to say life’s too short to be closeted about this.
I’m in a very supportive community in this larger city. And I thought to myself: I don’t see a lot of other scientists expressing this kind of gender fluidity or gender nonbinary ness.
It’s time for me to be out and more public with this and kind of risk that perception from the research community in order to make head ground for people to see more people like me.
Adam Levy: 17:43
You describe it right there as as a risk.
Is that something that was realized, that people’s perception of you shifted as you came out more publicly.
Atom Lesiak: 17:55
I could see that people navigated interactions with me in a very different way.
For some people, I think it opened the door for them to have a more genuine connection with me.
Turned into a situation where I felt like a safe place for people to come to, and bring their whole selves to the workplace.
And I think among my peers and among my mentees in particular, they felt safe with me.
My identity and the fear that, I would say, more established researchers felt about potential of misgendering me, or not being able to interact with me in a way that they historically felt safe interacting with somebody.
And especially when I was a postdoc on the job market looking for a faculty position, there was some conversations that I was kind of privy to, some professors at a conference that I was at.
They were attending a panel about racial inclusivity in the research community, and they said: Oh, I think that we’re doing a really good job here about being inclusive of people from all sorts of different racial backgrounds. And you know, we’ve got men and women here. But I just cannot handle this whole non binary, they/them business.
And I’m standing right behind them as they’re having this private conversation. And I remember thinking: Oh, one of these men are at an institution that I applied to recently.
Or in other cases, I think I really have a lot of empathy for people that have not used gender neutral pronouns with a person before. Wanting to be able to use the right pronouns, but maybe being clumsy in the process of engaging with that.
Because of that, they’re on edge, and they’re fearful in that interaction, and then it makes it very difficult for them to come and have a genuine relationship with me, if they’re kind of coming to that from a place of fear.
Adam Levy: 19:55
Has that fear in your experience ever, ever transformed into forms of hostility?
Atom Lesiak: 20:03
Yeah, I think a lot of the impact of the discomfort people were feeling were happening behind the scenes, in conversations and back doors.
And the hostility that I experienced face-to-face was more when I was speaking up for changes to be made, to make the space more inclusive.
So making sure that there is access to gender-neutral bathrooms, or that we share our pronouns.
Well, I guess I do have one incident of that open hostility in the form of an email chain where an emeritus professor openly mocked the idea of gender neutral pronouns, which then gave accidental permission for other folks to join in on the fun of, kind of using pronoun usage as a humorous conversation piece.
I openly confronted that through and the responding to this email chain.
And that email got out to everybody at the institution, and caused some problems, less about what was said in the email chain, but the fact that that email chain became public knowledge.
I feel for the folks that were having that conversation, because I think some of them actually were curious about gender pronouns and didn’t even recognize the hostility in the original email.
So I feel for them, but I think I lost a lot of trust among, kind of the senior researchers in the department, that they were I think, fearing that I might publicly embarrass them in the way that these folks were embarrassed by the email chain that got out.
Adam Levy: 21:49
How did these kinds of incidents from this email chain to maybe academics just not really knowing how to interact with you?
How did they affect you on a personal level? How did they affect your mental health, your wellbeing?
Atom Lesiak: 22:06
I think at the beginning, I had a lot of pride in thinking that I was not impacted by it.
As I persisted through the many different avenues that as a researcher seeking, you know, public funding and working with program officers and gaining, kind of, that buy-in to the projects that you’re trying to launch.
I started to see the impact that my identity was having, and having those kind of opportunities come up.
It was never obvious, but it was very subtle in ways that started to kind of grind on my confidence that I could actually make my way in the scientific world.
I recognize that my ability to have relationships with some of my senior colleagues just disappeared.
I think there’s a lot of different factors at play there, but the withdrawal of specifically, of, kind of senior individuals becoming my mentor as a young faculty at the time, it was really hard to find, find my way through that, and it had a severe impact on my mental health. And my personal confidence, I think, in addition to that.
Adam Levy: 23:16
Now in parallel to the research you were doing, you have, for many years, in your own words, served as an advocate for social justice.
How did doing this work, in parallel to your research, affect your your career as well as your wellbeing?
Atom Lesiak: 23:33
Being an advocate in spaces is extremely rewarding. I feel really honoured to have been able to speak up at times where somebody’s voice needed to be heard to make a change in the space.
Every time that you kind of work your way up through the scientific research ladder, your spaces that your voice is going to be heard in kind of get bigger and among more powerful individuals.
When you are, say, a new postdoc, it’s really hard to put yourself out there and speak up about something, especially when it goes contrary to the people that are more senior and more powerful in that space.
Because when you do speak up about that, that hierarchy gets challenged in a way, and what I wish that a lot of the more powerful individuals in those spaces did was welcome that feedback and welcome hearing dissenting views rather than reacting from a defensive view or even withdrawing from an individual that’s challenging that power.
The biggest impact that it had on me was just never feeling welcomed by the whole of the institution.
When I was going through annual review, I knew that the only people voting on my merit on an annual basis were the more senior faculty.
And as it started to become obvious that I didn’t get buy in from senior faculty, it became really obvious that this was not the place that I was going to be able to successfully navigate my career in academia.
Like over time, I think I felt very lonely and isolated.
Adam Levy: 25:19
What did you do during this time to safeguard your own mental health as best you could?
Atom Lesiak: 25:26
So, in addition to kind of the larger feeling of unwelcomeness and the institution that I was at, I was having some very challenging interactions with some individuals and looking for somebody to help me with the communication, or with resolving or finding some kind of resolution to those conflicts.
Unfortunately, I never got that help that I needed. And again, rather than anybody reaching out to me to say: Hey, how can we help you feel more comfortable in this space?
People just left me to kind of float out in space on my own.
And the impact of this kind of, you know, these negative interactions and the larger withdrawal really put me into a space of, I would say, depression and hopelessness.
My mental health got bad enough that I needed to take a leave of absence for a month.
In that time, I was really reflecting on whether or not academia was going to be a long-term home for me, even though I’d been there for 20 some years.
But I’m really glad that I stepped away from that space, even though it felt like I couldn’t do that without it completely tanking my career.
I think, having stepped away for a little while I’m recognizing that my career is way more resilient than that. I don’t necessarily need to hold on to an unwelcoming institution in order to get by now.
Adam Levy: 26:57
Of course, a lot of what we’ve been speaking about has has centred around gender identity and transness.
But do you have any advice for other academics who are marginalized, perhaps also on the basis of gender identity, but perhaps also based on disability, on race, on how they can navigate academia?
Atom Lesiak: 27:18
Absolutely. I think, ultimately, I think it’s asking for what you want and asking for what you need is so important in that space.
One of the things that I saw was we had a student that really needed a quiet space to escape, kind of the pandemonium of a laboratory environment from time to time in order for their mental health.
I think they were kind of shy about asking for it themselves, but when they got the ear of a faculty member, I thought to myself: Oh, well, we can ask for that.
And sure enough, when we asked for it, it was something that we were able to find space to do.
And a lot of other people really valued having that space to go to, to recharge before going back into the lab space.
As scary as it is to ask for what you need, the institution, I think, is not capable of reading your mind or to knowing and being able to predict exactly what everybody needs.
And that, I think, need to normalize asking for what you want and asking for what you need in these spaces.
Adam Levy: 28:27
Now, what’s really come through from your personal experiences was, at times, feeling isolated in certain situations.
So what then should, I suppose, other researchers, allies, be doing to help support their fellow academics who are marginalized in one way or another.
Atom Lesiak: 28:46
I think the dynamic goes both ways. We’ve got the mentees or the junior individuals needing to ask for what they want, and we also need people with power, or supervisors or mentors to ask their mentees or junior folks, what do you need?
And creating that space for people to speak up about things that they might be shy about talking about. But if you’re not having that conversation, you can’t hear or respond in a way that makes people feel heard.
We should have a conversation about what’s going to make this a better space to work in.
Adam Levy: 29:22
Now, political organizations around the world are increasingly scapegoating trans people and, more broadly, LGBTQ+ people.
What can academic institutions do to try, I suppose, to offset this, to protect trans and LGBTQ+ researchers as much as possible, despite this, this political headwind?
Atom Lesiak: 29:48
So I’m currently residing in Texas, and this weekend, I was chatting with some individuals that are at university, state universities here, where their LGBTQ centres can no longer exist on campus, they can receive campus funding.
The biggest thing I would say for folks that are within these institutions that no longer have that safe space on campus is to make sure that we’re investing in organizing and getting together off campus.
And I think as faculty, or if you’re creating kind of communities and departments or research centres, making sure that you’re in vocal support, even if you can’t provide the physical space support.
I think that, to me, is going to be where strength and solidarity really is found, is in those face-to-face community meetings at the institutions I know there’s all sorts of legal aspects that could or could not happen over the forthcoming years.
Finding ways to navigate some of these rules that doesn’t break the law but still supports the environment and the community at large.
Adam Levy: 30:57
What is your dream academic institution, in terms of how that institution tackles harassment of the members that make up that institution?
Atom Lesiak 31:08
Oh, my dream vision for academia.
That’s a hard question, because I’ve seen and I’ve been a part of some really amazing research groups.
The thing that those communities had in common was that the hierarchy within the space was dissolved in a way, or is more fluid.
We treated each other like peers rather than: boss talks, postdocs talk, everybody else listens.
I think one of my buddies and I used to talk about when we would kind of pick apart each other’s research.
We said it was tempering each other’s steel.
So your science gets better when I can kind of poke it. I think that same kind of engagement needs to happen in research communities around how are we developing this community space? How are we creating the institution?
How can leadership, how can they receive the feedback and then make changes that make people feel more welcomed in that space?
And I think for me, at the centre of everything is humility and communication.
Adam Levy 32:14
Atom Lesiak there.
As both Adam and Kritika shared, being made to feel unsafe in one’s research and in one’s research environment, can have profound impacts on mental health and well being.
Another researcher I spoke with, Ruth Cerezo Mota of the National Autonomous University of Mexico, shared her fears that her place of work might try to force her out for publicly criticizing Mexico’s new president’s environmental policies.
Ruth Cerezo Mota: 32:44
It depends on the time of the day. So, like, sometimes it’s like: Oh, I don’t care. I don’t regret anything. And if they want to fire me because of that, then it’s fine.
But then it’s then I get, like, really worried, and then start to have panic attacks, like, what if they actually succeed to fire me because, but it’s like, do I really want to go through that? Do I really want to be in a place that they clearly don’t want me?
But then it’s not that easy to get a job in academia. So it stresses me. It worries me. And I don’t know if I will have money next year. That can be a little bit too much to be in my mind.
Adam Levy 33:23
And we’ll hear more from Ruth in next week’s episode looking at how researching environmental destruction can impact the mental health of scientists.
Until then, this has been Mind Matters: Academia’s Mental Health Crisis, a podcast from Nature Careers.
Thanks for listening. I’m Adam Levy.
